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Post by lurch_E_bean on Apr 9, 2013 0:09:24 GMT -6
Why did I watch Wrestlemania to avoid spoilers tonight? I MISSED THE FUCKING ZIGGLER CASH IN! Also, whatever the hell this crazy Fandago shit is... Every time I skip Raw to watch the PPV from the day before (which I typically know will be shitty anyway) it ends up being a fun show. When will I learn?  Yeah, I don't know either, dude... Though after this and last year's post WM Raw, I'm not going to miss that show again, whether or not I've seen WM... |
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Post by Ed Becker on Apr 9, 2013 3:52:51 GMT -6
Honestly, your product is in a world of shit when the crowd becomes the show. It means they're bored with it and could give two shits about it.
Yes, WWE is all about catering to WWE fans (who aren't necessarily wrestling fans) but that's their bread and butter. Not the smart fans, but the ones who invest in the brand. They're to wrestling as to what Nickelback is to rock and roll. It's a form of it, but not really even though sometimes they do deliver.
We're not their audience. It's obvious.
And I will say this in defense of tonight's or I should say, last night's Raw: There was some decent wrestling. Show's still too long at 3 hours. The crowd threw everything else off to where King, JBL and Cole sounded like they were having fun. An actual shoot aspect of the broadcast where even they say "fuck it."
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Post by DougieAXP on Apr 9, 2013 5:51:30 GMT -6
That may be the case Ed, but that whole crowd absolutely marked for Ziggles anyway you look at it.
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Post by DougieAXP on Apr 9, 2013 5:56:21 GMT -6
Smiths: Ed Becker : And I will say this in defense of tonight's or I should say, last night's Raw: There was some decent wrestling. Show's still too long at 3 hours. The crowd threw everything else off to where King, JBL and Cole sounded like they were having fun. An actual shoot aspect of the broadcast where even they say "fuck it."
exactly. the crowd became the show. WWE writers should be pissed, Vince should be pissed, etc...
but it was at least a fucking enjoyable watch. Ziggler cash in was great cuz of the crowd (I bet they wanted boos... the NC crowd will boo him next week).. the Fandango song thing was so fucking awesome, but i predict it being muted. Vince wants Fandango to be a cowardly prissy heel that people pay to see get beat up. Last night made it come off as people pay to see him win. And fuck John cena's little dance in the ring during his match. pisses me off that it seems he's the only one who has freedom to acknowledge the crowd and when he does it it just makes him come off as goofy. He should have focused on Henry at that moment.
And Henry did the perfect thing in response... he shoved Cena to the mat, beat him down, and screamed "DANCE NOW, JOHN"
I am still signing the Fandango song and want to se him on TV now just in hopes people keep singing it. If Vince hits the "drop" button on it, we'll know the true WWE is still there. He tweeted "#SayMyName #SingMyMusic"
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Post by sharktrager on Apr 9, 2013 6:58:23 GMT -6
Don't be so sure the whole NC crowd will be booing Ziggler. That may be what the truck makes it sound like but he is possibly the most over wrestler in the company, despite Vince's best efforts to end that. (You'd have thought he'd have learned with DBry.) Everywhere he goes there are people who love him, just like Punk, and there are always those who love him more because they know it drives Vince nuts. Even in the south.
As for Fandango... I think a lot of people misread the character. He was never supposed to be a coward. He was just a prissy prima donna, which is one of the oldest gimmicks out there. But appears to be one who can fight. It's understandable to assume heel=coward because that is the WWE standard, but they have too much invested in the guy for that would be my guess. They have a plan for him. I only worry that whatever it was the last 2 nights may have derailed it.
My biggest concern is The Shield. Look at who they have gone 3 on 3 with and dominated. Suddenly you throw in Taker, the night after a very brutal match, and they're scared? I'm thinking we may be seeing the start of their decline.
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Post by styckx on Apr 9, 2013 8:18:25 GMT -6
Don't be so sure the whole NC crowd will be booing Ziggler. That may be what the truck makes it sound like but he is possibly the most over wrestler in the company, despite Vince's best efforts to end that. (You'd have thought he'd have learned with DBry.) Everywhere he goes there are people who love him, just like Punk, and there are always those who love him more because they know it drives Vince nuts. Even in the south. As for Fandango... I think a lot of people misread the character. He was never supposed to be a coward. He was just a prissy prima donna, which is one of the oldest gimmicks out there. But appears to be one who can fight. It's understandable to assume heel=coward because that is the WWE standard, but they have too much invested in the guy for that would be my guess. They have a plan for him. I only worry that whatever it was the last 2 nights may have derailed it. My biggest concern is The Shield. Look at who they have gone 3 on 3 with and dominated. Suddenly you throw in Taker, the night after a very brutal match, and they're scared? I'm thinking we may be seeing the start of their decline. The biggest difference with Fandango Vs others who got the shitty Vince gimmicks in the past. Johnny Curtis is completely and utterly owning the gimmick and character. It's absolutely the shittiest gimmick Vince has come up with in ages (and about 5 years past pop culture relevance) But Johhny has fully embraced himself to become this fictional Fandango character to the point you forget it's just some muscle head jock playing the part and think this goofable is for real like this. I think this is the only reason the gimmick hasn't fallen face first yet and sort of has a cult like "love to hate it" cult following. The gimmick itself should have crashed harder than Tensai |
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Post by styckx on Apr 9, 2013 11:10:54 GMT -6
styckx: The gimmick itself should have crashed harder than Tensaiexactly. Like JoePa it takes the character convincing people that's who he is. I gave Fandango no chance whatsoever but after seeing it last night with an insane crowd backing... it's something that fans need to consistently be "in on" to keep working. Brodus Clay never looked comfy as the Funkasaurus (plus he had 'monster' promo shit before)... so you had fun with it but shat on it cuz you -- as a smark -- knew backstage he was uncomfortable and had to have time off to get into it. Tensai? NO ONE bought the fucking Japanese warrior shit because they did everything they could to not go THIS WAS ALBERT REMEMBER ALBERT... so of course fans shat on it Joseph Park SHOULD have been shat on... but they did him in such a way that it wasn't "are you kidding me? he's obviously ABYSS!" by keeping abyss as another character (with Bully ray's student playing him at one point during the JoePa/Ray feud). Once they solidified the distinction, they went into the "he sees blood and does Abyss stuff" but didn't rely on that at all. The announcers never doubted he was a different character; no one on the roster remotely treated him as "abyss without the costume". Joseph Park is Joseph Park. I am now willing to give this guy a "Fandango IS Fandango" pass and support. Again, the crowds have to keep in it and the announcers cannot bury him. Make us believe -- ON TV -- that this is who Fandango is. That there will be no "repackaging" at some point. Make us believe that NO MATTER WHAT.. if we boo.. if we shit on it... you will not just turn him into comedy dope. WWE's been doing it for far too long. But if he comes out on Smackdown and his music is muted... you'll know where they stand... "HE'S BAD GUY" Yep.. I really miss the old style of booking. It's not so much the AE Era "PG-13" content.. It was just the way Vince listened to the crowd, fed them a little when they begged, but more importantly kept us guessing. For example.. 15 years ago Mark Henry would have pinned Cena clean in the ring for the title after a 20 minute match sending the crowd home cover in their own splooge because it wasn't what anyone would have expected and the crowd was salivating for Cena to get pinned. I miss the random surprise title changes of the AE era.. Some reigns didn't last long but Vince kept you guessing that "anything could happen"... Like Mick Foley winning the title on RAW Jan 4th, 1999.. |
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Post by sharktrager on Apr 9, 2013 11:49:01 GMT -6
styckx: 15 years ago Mark Henry would have pinned Cena clean in the ring for the title after a 20 minute match sending the crowd home cover in their own splooge because it wasn't what anyone would have expected and the crowd was salivating for Cena to get pinned. I miss the random surprise title changes of the AE era..15 years ago Vince wasn't obsessed with proving he's smarter than the geeks on the Internet, and there wasn't as much trouble hiding the behind the scene stuff. Now he has got to have people whose entire job is messing with the IWC and the sheets, and they spend a ton of time spreading false rumors not to keep you guessing but to try to make the IWC look bad. Swerves still happen, but they're stupid because heaven forbid the real swerves have ever been suggested by a fan. If Vince ran TNA Bully wouldn't be A&8 President because too many people guessed it. What I think people miss is that you can be PG-13 and have a good product, if you just accept the reality of the modern era. The idea of good vs. evil has changed. 2 straight generations have grown up with moral ambiguity, and we're passing it on to our kids. Cena loses his fans by the time they hit 10. That's reality. The solution is not to stay entrenched with the idea bad guys are cowards and good guys are always justified in what they do. It's to accept that people will latch on to whomever they like, for what ever reason, and just run with it. I still contend the Attitude Era didn't succeed because they were more adult oriented, they succeeded because they gave the people what they wanted. Heel or Face Austin was Austin. His status depended on whom he was feuding with. The fans forced Vince to make Austin a star, and he did. If that happened today he'd throw Austin in to a tag team with Santino as the anti-Austin. He'd do it just because he wanted control of how the guy is perceived and he will use the most absurd things to achieve that. On a related note, that is related to why they are screwing up the tag division. When was the last real tag team feud? The closest things to feuds are the ad hoc tag teams they use to keep individual wrestlers busy between feuds. They have built a couple of decent teams (Awesome Truth and Rhodes Scholars come to mind) but they don't do anything with them, and everyone knows the tag division is just filler. The teams may have a story behind them, but they are not involved in any story beyond their individual story.
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Post by DougieAXP on Apr 9, 2013 19:11:57 GMT -6
Where the hell is the Hall of Fame Ceremony?
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Post by DougieAXP on Apr 9, 2013 19:43:28 GMT -6
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Post by fender on Apr 9, 2013 23:08:16 GMT -6
Ed Becker:
And Henry did the perfect thing in response... he shoved Cena to the mat, beat him down, and screamedDANCE NOW, JOHN TELL ME A JOKE, JOHN. HUH DANCE NOW, CENA! |
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Post by Ed Becker on Apr 10, 2013 3:33:23 GMT -6
DougieAXP: That may be the case Ed, but that whole crowd absolutely marked for Ziggles anyway you look at it. I'm not disputing that in the least. Ziggles is one of those guys who is over in spite of the shit-platter he's been used on. Others in the last 5 or so years include Bryan and Punk. The guy's talented as hell, has gotten really good on the mic and he's been saddled with stupid gimmicks but he's over like a motherfucker in spite of all of that due to the guy's talent. He'd probably be over if they dressed him up like Bob Dog from Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood and sent him out there. Smiths: So when people thing increasing a rating is the key to this they are wrong. The key is doing what TNA has been working on for so long.... just let the people go out there, entertain, and let fans cheer for who they want.
You're still manipulating the fans, but at least TNA is letting the workers work in their roles. You never let the fans dictate how you book. Influence, yes. This goes to my point about guys today vs. the guys from the territory days. They knew how to turn a crowd. For example, we'll take a generic undercard match. Give me about 13 minutes, at least 3 false finishes and the heel goes over with his finish. Then the guys would call it in the ring. Usually the heel would call the match in the ring as the more experienced guy. They'd listen to the crowd, heel would heel on the baby, baby gets his hope spots and fuck up to fall to the heel or the heel would pull some chicanery. That's just one example. A lot of newer guys just don't know how to do it. They may come from the point of going over each and every spot in a match and the gotta get all their shit in. It might be a nifty performance, but they sometimes never bring the people in. Smiths: Vince is determined to make it "bad = evil = BOO THIS MAN". And it's fucking annoying. And when you cheer the wrong man.. HE FUCKING MAKES SURE YOU ARE MUTED. That's why Raw on Monday was entertaining... when the whole room is just going batshit insane, there's no way to control it. Even if you crank up the entrance music and kill the room mics it'll still come over the commentators' mics when they're open.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2013 14:40:30 GMT -6
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Post by clintster on Apr 10, 2013 19:04:07 GMT -6
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