The role of the ref

[Ed Becker]

pmoneyallstar: Ok, so after you answer the rest of the questions: Does The ref just follow the wrestlers lead until it's time to "take it home"?


Several answers to this... The ref can be a major part of the unseen mechanics of a match. If they workers are solid, yes. The ref should be following the match as if he is a actual official. He doesn't need to know the finish or any false finishes as he should go with the flow. Proper theory has the ref working the match as if it's an actual competition. Obviously that's different if there's spots called for the ref. More on this in a bit.

The ref will also relay spots from one wrestler to another. If he's an experienced worker he'll call spots on his own depending on the heat and the format of the show, especially if he's working with green guys. Sadly with many of the newer guys, they have hard-on's for getting their spots in that has nothing to do with the psychology of a match.

Also, the heat should stay on the wrestlers and not on the ref.

If the ref is wired (earpiece) he's the one to relay timing issues or spots to the wrestlers. This mainly occurs on TV/PPV.

We would have the occasional "Come to Jesus Meeting" in the locker room. Especially when new guys would come in. It went kinda like this: "Listen to the ref. If you're heeling on the baby in the corner or on the ropes, break on 3. It is expected that the ref DQ you if you continue past the 5 count. If you're on the outside, get back in before 10. The refs will DQ you regardless of the called finish. If there's a false finish, kick out or put your foot on the ropes. If the pin isn't broken, the ref will count it and you are a turd for not paying attention." This goes back to not putting the heat on the ref. And yes, the tag straps traded hands because someone forgot to kick out of a false finish. We got over it.

[Ed Becker]

Also, some good podcasts are here: Ask the Ref With Jimmy Korderas. First one is on page #27. On that first one Jimmy describes Damian's poop.

Another thing he talks about is some local guys at a WWE show having a tryout with the Highlanders. The tryout guys heeled on the Highlanders in the corner past the 5 count and got DQ'ed. We had that same policy. That's just the way it should be.

[Ed Becker]

Also, Ask the ref #5 gives some good examples of workers not kicking out or breaking in the corner at the 5 count. Wrestling is a work. The ref should work the match as a shoot.

[Ed Becker]

Smiths: but then i watch botchamania. where the ref stops counting at 2 and has to try and sell the fact it was a close count.

There's two things in play in a situation like that. 1: Lack of training. 2: Indy worker syndrome. By that I mean to them the match isn't over until they get all their shit in. It has nothing to do with telling a story of a worked competition. No, the goal of many indy workers is to make sure to get all of their spots in and then the match can end. I forget who said it, but someone said regarding indy shows that there's more marks in the ring than in the crowd.

Another thing that annoys me is that some refs plant with a hand while getting into position to the count so that it looks and sounds like it's part of the count but isn't. That's confusing. People hear the slap on the mat and think it's part of the count. However, the ref should always yell the count as he makes it. And then signal it to the timekeeper.

One of the things that pissed be off when I was with MAW was the ring announcer, timekeeper and sound guy knew who was going over. I've played all of those roles. Match starts and somebody goes to piss or get a beer or leaves the CD of the intro music of the guy going over on top of the sound board. If I had to pee or get a beer while I was ring announcing, I'd duck out right away. Then, I might have gotten instructions from the booker/promoter to relay to the boys. Anyways, I'd get back quick. If I was the ring announcer, I'd announce the winner of the match and get in the ring to plug the sponsors before the next match. If I was the timekeeper, and goddamn, we had a pathetic bell, but I would raise the hammer to ring the bell any time there was a false finish. I would always wait for the ref's signal. That's what you do as a worker. When I ran sound, and it was when the sound guy botched everything, I figured out the antique board with CD players I would put both CD cases on the top of the board so the fans couldn't see who would go over. Work, work, work.

Also, I would think that in the spirit of refs working the match as a shoot that would include refs in states that have athletic commissions from back in the day. Auntie Cheesus talked about this from her time in the SF office.

[Ed Becker]

Smiths: i fucking hate that. TNA and WWE are both guilty of that and it's annoying as shit. they run over to make the count and SLAM down on their way so you think that's the "1" count.


Agreed. It's many refs even outside of WWE and TNA.

I just tried to light a pretzel.

Look at the Hebners. Dave, Earl or Brian. Their 2 and 3/4 count is so obvious. They sweep the counting hand sideways for a false 3. Obvious giveaway. How about the wrestlers kick out on time or if it's important, the ref hits 3 because he can't stop the travel of his arm. Then he has to tell the timekeeper that no, that wasn't the end of the match. Some more drama. The ref should not be biased. The heat should be on the wrestlers.

I loved Tommy Young. I hated the spot where he exchanged shoves with Flair. I also hated him (or any other ref) kicking the heel's arm or foot for grabbing the rope to break a hold or count. Imagine if an NFL ref did that. That's horse shit. It doesn't matter if it's a baby or a heel, the ref needs to be neutral.

Turning a ref during a tag is a different story. That's part of the story of a tag match. The heels need to turn the ref away from what's happening outside. The ref should work the match as a shoot.

/Also, RIP Bobby Jaggers.
//I'm carny drunk.

[Ed Becker]

Smiths: the only time i'm cool with a ref doing the "interfere with a wrestler" is when the wrestler is bullying the ref. In the end the ref is kinda like the "spectator with a better seat" in that you sometimes can imagine yourself in the role. So when Bobby ROOOOOOO is going after the ref and the ref shoves him back, i'm cool with that. Cuz why should he sit there and take that shit? He's trying to call a match and do his job and you don't get to attack him without any repercussions (during or after the match).


I understand your point but I disagree with it. Ya gotta remember that wrestling is properly presented as an actual competition. Yes, you do have the suspension of disbelief aspect, but it makes it easier to present when you stick to those guns. A boxer or MMA fighter would have hell to pay if he was bullying a ref. A player in the NFL or MLB would get fined and/or suspended. Fines and suspensions in wrestling are bullshit because people are in on it. It's not good angle fodder as the fine is as much bullshit as the $10k battle royal and with the suspension it's a cop-out for vacation, injury rehab or future endeavoring.

Anyways, back on topic. Stupid vodak. I drink because I care. And fuck these fruit flies on my monitor.

I would just not have wrestlers get physical with the refs. Ref bumps are different as they're "accidental." James Beard has talked about this on Wrestling Classics where a wrestler would push him around or not heed his counts, he would point to his ref shirt and admonish him stating that he can DQ him. And that's the way it should be done.

Turning the ref is a different story, especially in a tag. Whether it's a babyface bitching at the ref for those dastardly heels working over their partner or whatever.

BTW, I'd love to see a year of WWE and TNA doing a year without a ref bump. It's overused. It would be fresh again if they went away from that for a while.

[Ed Becker]

Smiths: Yeah. I am stoked for Bound for Glory but am a little nervous some of the matches will end up being Ref Bump Heaven.
It's a crutch to do the "XXX could beat YYY" thing to get crowd jacked up believing either person can win it. The match itself should convince you either person can win.


We're in total agreement on this one. TNA has been historically ref bump happy over the last few years. The intensity of many TNA matches lately has been top notch to where you don't need a ref bump.

Now, in the instance of King Mo: Are they gonna have a ref and use KM as the enforcer in case of a ref bump or other shenanigans? The website just lists KM as the enforcer. I can't remember who it was, it was either the E or TNA where they brought in an enforcer and had a regular roster ref. This is how I would prefer the street fight at BFG would be done. That was a lot of brain cells ago.

So here's my drunken rant and instructional piece: Reffing ain't easy. I've had ref training. You need to know where to be to see what's happening between the wrestlers to call the action (checking a headlock for a choke, etc.) and not block the view of the fans. That's why you see refs move around or work out of the corners when the guys or gals are in the middle of the ring. You're constantly moving around. Unless you're working a highspot-laden match, you're moving around almost as much as the wrestlers, albeit without taking bumps. Remember that Earl Hebner is in his early-mid 60's and Charles Robinson is in his mid 40's. You gotta be in shape.

You also need to be able to vocalize the counts and breaks and submission attempts while physically motioning so the people can see it. And then there's the whole thing about getting down to count.

Which leads me to kinda ribbing myself: Goddamn this is bringing back memories. This is back in the early 00's. I had been given many of the pointers I listed above. My in-ring stress test was during workouts before a MAW show. Remember that old Punk/Cabana debut match I posted? It was in that ring in that room. It probably wasn't long after that. I don't remember the guys working out in the ring, but Dave Prazak was "managing" during the workout. In the timeline, this would have meant that Punk and Cabana were there. This was before we were using Ian Rotten and some of the Louisville guys.

Anyways Prazak was trying to turn me, when someone locked on a hold he would yell "Ass Cream" as opposed to "ask him." Trying to break me. I was calling a match in the ring during workouts.

My bad: I'm a klutz. I couldn't for the life of me make a decent slide for a count. Also remember I was at the time 6'1" and about 230lbs. It wasn't muscle. Prazak nicknamed me "Bronko Lubich" for good cause because I was blown up and just getting down on my knees and spreading out to do a count. And holy fuck was I blown up. That wasn't really my thing.